How things stand

[leroyjennifer]

Hi folks,

I posted the following on a cricket/Glos thread on a Bristol Rovers forum and am copying here to provoke some discussion for the upcoming season! Grateful for your thoughts, particularly on Liddle's extension!


'Allow me to dissect the disappointment of 2017.

Starting with individuals, it is an obvious blow no longer having Klinger for red ball cricket although he also hasn't sustained his white ball form of previous years (admittedly no easy task). Dent remains a terrifically talented player but perhaps lacks the drive to improve his game further (and has a young, growing family). Bancroft did nothing until a double ton in his last game (which kickstarted his recent form); Cockbain gets no red ball opportunity; Hankins hasn't yet delivered on his potential (but I hope will in 2018); Tavare's form has utterly deserted him; and Roderick had a mysterious 'illness' for a lot of the season.

In bowling, Miles went backwards in 2017 but not through injury; Norwell was excellent again but still couldn't get a sniff with the Lions (Glos' standing in the game?); Payne's reliability was undermined Matt Taylor's woeful inconsistency, and the fact Chris Liddle's contract was extended into 2018 tells me there are no decent young seamers in the academy nor any better journeyman pros on Glos' radar.

J Taylor, Smith & V. Buuren are spinners that, on a good day, can hold an end but rarely look threatening. Taylor is banned from bowling next year, which will cause headaches as Smith's batting is impotent in white ball and V. Buuren is a talented bat but probably the worst spinner of the three and seems injury prone.

On the plus side I'm really excited about Bracey as he looks a good batsman, a good keeper, and an enthusiastic Gashead. He'll miss the beginning of next year with university which is a shame because I'd gladly jettison Mustard to give him a run of games. Mustard hasn't contributed much of anything.

As for all rounders Benny Howell doesn't receive enough plaudits as a T20 cricketer. He's a very skilful bowler, an excellent fielder, and has different gears to his batting. I watched him and Cockbain put on 196 to win at Lords in the RL50 when the game looked lost. With the exciting arrival of Ryan Higgins I hope that means we'll be saying goodbye to Kieran Noema-Barnett, who embodies Glos' pursuit of mediocrity.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with next years' overseas - probably a batsman again but if Bancroft has a decent Ashes then not him. We could really use a reliable, wily old seamer. A decent spinner would be nice but that's not going to happen. It's a damned shame we couldn't get Will Gidman to come back. It's hard to assess Richard Dawson as he just sends out the same mid-table team every week, although I gather he's well thought of on the circuit.

The most interesting point is the one raised by Irish - why are Glos so unambitious? The ground redevelopment seems a success: non-cricket income; international games scheduled and always sold out; T20 selling well in Bristol. The accounts show profits, albeit modest, for the past few years. It feels like now is the time to convert that by paying for some established names to complement the core of talented local young(ish) players. Winning the RL50 in 2015 was unexpectedly wonderful but there's been nothing to shout about since. T20 in 2017 was immensely disappointing. It's time they qualified for Finals Day and were at least competing for promotion from Division 2.

When CEO Will Brown arrived 4-5 years ago he talked a lot about taking better advantage of being based in Bristol (i.e. population, relative wealth etc.) but I have no idea what he's been working on since the floodlights went up. Producing better wickets at Bristol would be a start!'

Read more: gasheads.org/thread/6429/county-cricket-witterings-2017?page=1#ixzz50cQ3KebZ

[jonb]

There's a lot there!

Views - Difficult to argue with most of the assessments on individual players - the one slight quibble, is I do get a bit frustrated continually reading that Cockbain is given 'no red ball opportunity' - the man is 30 years old and averages a (very) marginal shade over 30 - in this light it's surely right to persevere with Hankins/Bracey, as fine a white ball player as Cockbain is.

Batting is still clearly light - Bancroft hasn't worked out, and despite him breaking into the Aussie side, I'm not convinced he wouldn't struggle again with the ball moving around. There's a good chance it's taken out of our hands anyway, as he is likely to be away with the Aussie sides now. I firmly believe the overseas needs to be a replacement batsman - if possible, my choice would be Kraigg Brathwaite. He's a grinder, but the advantage of that is he's unlikely to be tied up with T20 commitments, and he'd give us some real solidity. Failing that (and I know it's not glamorous), somebody like Ed Cowan (and I may be imagining it, but I think he's got some kind of links to the area, other than playing for us previously). Obviously, I'd look to sign these for 4 day cricket only.

The spin bowling will remain a worry - as a country we don't produce high quality spinners, with the games being played when they are going some way to that. The loss of Jacks bowling is a huge blow (especially in T20), but with so much 4 day cricket when it is, I'd try and go with what we've got, despite that being clearly deficient. Unless we can pick up a Kolpak (as Essex did with Harmer), I just don't see where one is coming from.

Keepers - As much as Mustard hasn't delivered that much, he is one year into a (2 or 3?) year deal - so we can't just 'jettison' him, and the reality is he is still one of the best bats, despite slight under achievement. I think Rodericks fingers are too delicate, and he's too valuable, to let him keep. I'd stick with Mustard to begin with, especially with Bracey away. Bracey has indeed started excellently, and will hopefully continue to progress. Shame he's a gashead, but we all make mistakes.

I'm also continually disappointed we never sign Will G back! On the positive side though, I do wonder if Higgins is possible considered a younger version - though I accept he's got a long way to go.

Your main question - Liddle - I never thought I'd say this, but I'm OK with it. Wasn't he top wicket taker in the country in the 50 over last year or something, and increasingly handy in T20 (even if I don't agree with the selection policy of three left armers). Against that background, and on the proviso he's a white ball player mainly, why wouldn't you extend?

Norwell remains our absolute star, but does need more support. I'm hopeful that last year was an aberration for Craig Miles, and he'll come good again, but we do look thin again. I still presume we're looking to sign Josh Shaw - if not, picking him in a couple of dead rubber games at the end of last season looks lunacy.

Final thought - the second overseas for T20. I wouldn't be averse to seeing Perara back again, as I thought he did a good job. Failing that, possibly a spin bowling all rounder, who can replace the overs we'll lose from Jack. I've no idea who though.

[leroyjennifer]

Thanks for indulging me in my over-enthusiastic post jonb.

I totally agree with persevering with Hankins and Bracey over Cockbain. I'm just surprised Cockbain always seems to be at the back of the queue for the Championship despite consistently being one of our better batters in short form cricket. You're probably right though - maybe he's just not very good! I'd far sooner have Brathwaite or Cowan.

Every time I've seen Mustard bat live he's attempted to run the ball down to third man but got out giving the slips catching practice. Glos can't afford for one of their (presumably) higher earners to underperform.

Liddle's a back-up so on the assumption he's not taking up loads of room on the wage bill I can let that one slide. I'd forgotten about Shaw who I think would be a worthy permanent signing.

I too liked Perera. Maybe Dent can work on his spin over the winter!

I'd also like to see Will Brown do more to raise the profile of the club. I'll be cheesed off when/if Bristol isn't awarded any games in the new T20 competition.

[procswrongfoot]

Apologies if some of my comments merely repeats what I have said previously.

"Glos pursuit of mediocrity"....very sadly the lack of ambition has been a running theme over the past 10 years. There have been times when it appeared that we only existed merely as a focus for staging an occasional international match. The RLC success really should have ignited the club.......instead we have gone backwards again. The signing of Ryan Higgins perhaps give some hope that some ambition and forward looking still exists.

Hope that Dawson has learnt a lot from last season. Some of the selection decisions were just baffling (to put it politely!).

Sorry guys, but I now intend to commit heresy. Two years ago, I would have loved to see Will G return home. No chance for me now......seems a player on the wane. (Played only 8 matches for Kent last season. Rarely bowled..... 5 wickets at 46 av, 14 innings av 16.86. All matches in the CC).

Cockbain......previously batted him at 3 in CC (where you effectively need the technique of an opener). He should be competing for a spot lower in the order. To merely emphasise my point - if he directly competed with Jack for a CC berth in 2018, who would score the most runs?

The decline of Miles and Matt Taylor last season does raise obvious questions regarding our coaches. As a youngster Miles was also a decent bat, but on recent efforts it is hard to understand why he bats above Payne in the order.

A decent top order overseas is essential for 2018.

Perera for T20 - hard to argue with his stats, although I thought they rather flattered him. Personally, would prefer to see the return of AJ, who I still believe is more likely to be a match winner.

Finally, the wickets at Bristol are simply a major handicap for 4 day cricket, producing largely dull and attritional cricket. No easy answer of course.

[jonb]

Thanks Proc - some excellent points.

In answer to your question, who would I back to score more runs? Jack, every single day of the week. There's a reason that he won batsman of the year at the club - yes, it's all a bit unconventional at times, but he gets runs and continues to get better. There's no reason to thin that without bowling to focus on (depending on how much remedial stuff he might do) he won't improve further. Also younger than Cockbain, so no reason to think he can't still improve further 'naturally'. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Cockbain in the white ball stuff, and think he's a useful-ish squad player in red ball - I just think there's something contradictory about us moaning about 'pursuit of mediocrity' whilst championing a player who (in 4 day cricket) exemplifies that. That might be harsh, but the reality is that those kind of returns don't win you matches/get you promotions. I also think there's something of the England squad situation going on - players not playing become better players in peoples minds, just by their absence!

It's a totally fair point about Will G and his returns last year - there's also a suspicion in my mind he's not helped by the new toss rule (far less green seamer tracks) negating some of his effectiveness with the ball. There is still a part of me though that thinks he's been in and out of sides (Notts or Kent) for two or three years now, and maybe a proper run somewhere may bring the consistency back out. I'm aware this may be inconsistent with arguments ref Cockbain!

Had completely (and unfairly) forgotten about AJ, who I agree would be good to see back - as well as being more likely than Perara you'd think.

[procswrongfoot]

Jonb.......really refreshing to read differing views.

If Cockbain and Jack went head to head for a No 7 batting slot, then my money would be on Cockbain to score the most runs. However, FC career stats (bizarrely from 85 innings each) would confirm your view that Jack would out score him (Jack with 32.44 av compared to 30.15). Additionally, recent form would support that Jack's FC batting is on the up. I will have to cling to my (perhaps flimsy and totally untested) belief that Cockbains batting style would be more successful lower down the order in red ball cricket.

The trouble with my hypothetical question is that we will never know the actual answer.

Jack was a deserving recipient of the batsman of the year award. Memorable 143 against Worcs at Cheltenham. Somehow think that his follow up 101 not out and 43 (second innings) against the same opposition at New Road was even more impressive (even though I did not witness it personally). This was against an attack including the class of Ashwin, on a pitch supposedly deliberately prepared to assist him.

Batting at 7 (very occasionally 6), Jack played all 14 CC matches in 2017, scoring 665 runs in total. The devil's advocate in me would suggest that his batsman of the year award was a rather damning indictment of our front line batters record.

We will certainly miss his bowling next season (occasional wickets, variety and very helpful in controlling the actual over rate requirements). With Ryan Higgins primed to bat in the top 5, there are intriguing batting order possibilities. Personally, I am still struggling to work out our best potential line up.

As for Will G, his move to Notts and subsequent lack of FC cricket opportunities turned out very badly for his career. Very disappointing and sad indeed.

[leroyjennifer]

Proc, may I ask you to elaborate on the 'no easy answers' for the wicket at Nevil Road? What are the options as you see them? I know next to nothing about pitch preparation - are the commonly held traits of pitches (e.g WACA = fast and bouncy) due to the innate conditions of the local soil/climate or the way the groundsmen prepares them? I assume a combination of both.

Would injecting some life into the Bristol wicket simply take a lot of money or is it more complicated than that?

Thank you.

[procswrongfoot]

LJ......sorry to admit that my understanding of the intricacies of pitch preparation is pretty limited. Accordingly, prepare yourself for more of my normal level of waffle.

I have always been led to believe that the quality of a cricket square was highly dependent on the actual composition of the subsoil below the surface. Studies over the years have provided groundsmen with precise knowledge regarding the ideal composition of the soil structure, which I believe includes the need for a fairly exact percentage of clay.

An ideal subsoil for cricket squares can be found sometimes by sheer good fortune as to location, or achieved artificially with a purpose built ground ( e.g Ageas Bowl) or by relaying the square. Not entirely sure that the term relaying conveys the right image, as it involves digging down to a certain depth and removing and replacing the existing subsoil

In the past, we have relayed certain strips at Nevil Road. Think that this was somewhat experimental at the time (though my memory is rather hazy on this). However, you can't play on a relayed strip for 18 months or so and therefore realistically you could only relay probably 2 strips per year on a rolling programme.

Given an ideal subsoil, plus appropriate scarification and top dressing routines, an experienced groundsman (who knows when to water and when to roll) should be able to produce a top class cricket square. However, the unpredictable nature of our climate (prolonged wet spell or unexpected period of hot dry weather) must be a complete nightmare for our groundsmen. Perth, to which you refer, has a significant advantage of a very predictable climate.

A couple of contrasting examples of home pitches from last season:
Notts were scathing about our pitch at Nevil Road in early June. "No pace, no carry and deberately done to negate their attack" (who had demolished us at Trent Bridge two weeks earlier). At the time and being totally biased, I was delighted at secururing a draw. However, it is somewhat hard to really defend this type of wicket.
At Cheltenham (against Glamorgan) we had the remarkable sight of 25 wickets falling on the first day. Bit of life and movement off the wicket plus some poor shots. Must say that I thoroughly enjoyed a sensational day, absorbing from start to finish. However, plenty of moans around me....."embarrassing", "unacceptable", "the pitch inspectors are on their way" etc, etc. It did make me chuckle when subsequently Cheltenham and Arundel shared the ECB award for best out ground pitches in 2017.

So what are our actual options at Nevil Road?
1). Adopt a rolling programme of relaying the whole square. Might take 15 years to complete!!!
2). Four year programme to select and relay specific strips, exclusively for 4 day cricket.
3). Move to a purpose built ground.
4). Follow the example of Somerset and push our luck in producing" bunsen burner" pitches. Might need to find a future Allen/ Mortimore combination for this to work out in our favour.
5). Invest in drop in wickets. Somehow think that eventually drop in wickets will become quite normal for many Test matches. I am sure that I have read that even Lord's are toying with the idea.
6). Accept the status quo.

Most of the above are costly or unrealistic alternatives. (Perhaps it could be potentially achievable to prepare pitches that progressively spin more from day 3 onwards.....i.e a more subtle version of the current Somerset approach. This might also give some hope to young Glos spinners of the future).

Given all of above........status quo here we come!!!

[leroyjennifer]

Thanks very much for taking the time to set this out. I have to agree that if preparing pitches more conducive to spin produces fewer draws then that would be a realistic solution. It would be interesting to know what the club are considering, if anything at all.

[jonb]

The (obvious) problem with that strategy though, is you need spinners to make it work! Somerset did it, but they've got Leach and Bess - and still nearly went down. I just don't see how it works for us (and I appreciate we're probably talking longer term), when Jack can't bowl and Smith has always been used as a one day specialist. I see Miles Hammond has signed a contract extension, and I suppose it's possible he'll get more of a run this year with Jack not bowling.

As an aside, the Somerset strategy is interesting - as well as the fairly obvious risk with pitch inspectors (there is regular criticism of their pitches), it does seem to introduce a huge dependence on winning the toss and batting first, as I'm not sure you'd want to bat the 4th innings on those. It's interesting, as the toss rules effectively mean you can't do the same with producing a 'green seamer' result pitch (as you'll always get put in to bat), but you can produce a spinning result pitch - as you'll still get to toss and do what you want 50% of the time.

[procswrongfoot]

Earlier this week, I enjoyed reading a George Dobell article published on Cricinfo (' ECB's decade of errors led to Ashes failure'), which included his concerns that the marginalisation and dilution of the County Championship has degraded the competition that produces the Test team.

Particularly interesting was his comments on pitches:

'(the ECB) have done nothing to improve the pudding-like nature of pitches that proliferates in England and Wales. Centrally contracted groundsmen could and should have been introduced years ago'.

Must admit, the potential of having independent groundsmen does have a number of positive attractions. More consistency in pitches, more attractive cricket (hopefully), avoids the Somerset type controversies etc etc. No more need for the uncontested toss rule (would be good news from my traditional cricket fan viewpoint).

Turning back to the composition of our squad.The continuing silence over KNB is quite baffling (or have I merely missed something?). Surely the club has long since made it's mind up. (Personally, would be dismayed if he was somehow trying to extract a much better deal!!!)

[jonb]

And as if by magic Proc - the official site is now reporting KNB signing a 1 year extension (I don't think you missed it - it's new news). In fairness, he was better last year - but we seem to be well stocked for medium pace seam bowling all rounders now (Higgins/KNB/Benny) - they can't all play, surely?

Another complication is the sad news about Michael Klingers wife, which surely throws into doubt any participation for him this year - not that it's the important matter currently.

[rcotswold]

Have missed this thread for a few weeks; good interesting comments. I have felt for some time [years in fact] GCCC have missed the boat with decisions that appear to cement their ties to Neville Rd as opposed to a far-sighted visionary approach and take the difficult decision to move lock stock and barrel to “elsewhere”; preferably along the M5 corridor, but even on the green fields of Filton would have been preferable; the bliss of good transport links and ease of access plus parking – Oh joy! However our blinkered somnambulates have other ideas unfathomable to us mere mortals [faithful fan followers!] This pattern [head in sand and hope t'will go away model] seems also to be prevalent with playing staff. Bringing back Gourmont burgher is plainly ridiculous, [KNB] baffling and short-sighted. Liddle a steady lower middle of the road journey man brings little to the table. Mustard a retrogressive appointment; the argument that we needed a mature experience skipper to join our endless number of wicketkeepers seems daft. He has not, to my mind, justified his existence here. We have others that could and should have had that opportunity. Players that stood out for me, Dent, Norwell and Jack Taylor [occasionally] and possibly Payne; Bracey an excellent prospect. Benny and Ian Cockbain retain happily, but should be played more frequently. Smith and V Buren I would jettison; new potential spinner needed and one with potential to be considered eventually as Div 1 material – scouts get out there!. Dawson on borrowed time I feel as his team selections often lacked coherence and as said ‘baffling’. Bowling coach needs to reconsider his methodology as we have a misfiring bunch; all with potential but very inconsistent. Tim Hancock has only had a year heading up the Academy so next season will hopefully see some potential players emerge. As a fan of TH in his playing days, a vastly underrated player, I wish him well.
Are we going in the right direction; good question. Do I anticipate success next season – I’d be surprised. More of the same until we sign or produce that player that stand out and will lift us from the mundane also rans to the dizzy heights of Div 1.
I must add my condolences to Michael Klinger and his family and sincerely hope that all will be well. We will miss him but his understandable reaction to stay with his family is totally correct and pleased to see that is supported by GCCC.